U.S. shoots down Syrian military aircraft

[meesterperfect]

Forgive me but why are we talking about Putin and Ukraine?
It seems if the media doesn't purposely misguide people they just do it themselves.

Ok The US attacks Syria in Syria. Another War Yeah!
And they are openely helping "the Terrorists" who we've been at war with for 15 + years Yeah!
And they don't even hide it anymore because they control the media and people can't add 2 + 2 anymore by themselves.
Alright!
Lets talk about Putin. How very Democrat.
Let's do it fuck yeah!

 

[bodie54]

Forces could go in through eastern Europe but that would technically involve a NATO response and since Ukraine is not a part of the organization, Article 5 would not apply as you mentioned. Putin is playing poker here and betting that treaty obligations will remain static. However, if Ukraine's NATO application were to suddenly be approved, there would be an immediate obligation by all NATO members to come to Ukraine's aid.

Don't we already have a treaty obligation to defend Ukraine's sovereignty based on the Budapest Memorandum - to which Russia was a signee and is in direct and egregious violation of?

 

[sean miguel]

Don't we already have a treaty obligation to defend Ukraine's sovereignty based on the Budapest Memorandum - to which Russia was a signee and is in direct and egregious violation of?

if that's the case, then so are we.

The BM is not a legal obligation to provide military assistance. Unfortunately for Ukraine, they got hosed. Lesson to former Soviet satellites - don't trust the cuck west and keep your nukes. Unfortunately lesson too late.

 

[bodie54]

if that's the case

It's most definitely the case.

then so are we

How so?

 

[sean miguel]

It's most definitely the case.

then so are we

How so?

If we're under a treaty obligation to defend Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, it's already been violated on multiple fronts and remains so. So we're in violation.

 

[bodie54]

But we weren't the violators.
And we've taken measures to punish the violators.
So I'm still not understanding how we're on par somehow with the Russians?

 

[sean miguel]

But we weren't the violators.
And we've taken measures to punish the violators.
So I'm still not understanding how we're on par somehow with the Russians?

I didn't say we were on par. But if it's a treaty that requires us to defend Ukraine's territory then we are in violation of that treaty.

And we've punished the violator Russia, yet it still occupies Crimea and eastern Ukraine. SOMEONE is being sent home in those body bags.

 

[meesterperfect]

Russia Russia Russia.
Ukraine baby fuck yeah Alright!

My amp goes up to 11.

 

[bodie54]

I didn't say we were on par. But if it's a treaty that requires us to defend Ukraine's territory then we are in violation of that treaty.

And we've punished the violator Russia, yet it still occupies Crimea and eastern Ukraine. SOMEONE is being sent home in those body bags.

How, short of initiating a hot war that could lead to a nuclear confrontation, would you suggest we further aid Ukraine in respect to its sovereignty? It seems to me like we've taken up for the defense of their sovereignty in the most practical manner possible.

 

[sean miguel]

How, short of initiating a hot war that could lead to a nuclear confrontation, would you suggest we further aid Ukraine in respect to its sovereignty? It seems to me like we've taken up for the defense of their sovereignty in the most practical manner possible.

You tell me. You brought up the Budapest Memorandum suggesting that we were obligated to do more than we have.

 

[sean miguel]

I think Uraine should listen to Russia and consider their grievances - WHY is Russia hostile towards them? Then a peace needs to be brokered between the two parties where Russia gets what they want while respecting Ukraine's right to exist.


Does that sound about right, you fucking libs?

#OneLove

 

[Justaman]

I think Uraine should listen to Russia and consider their grievances - WHY is Russia hostile towards them? Then a peace needs to be brokered between the two parties where Russia gets what they want while respecting Ukraine's right to exist.


Does that sound about right, you fucking libs?

#OneLove

Hmmm....pardon me but I don't really see this as a liberal vs conservative issue. There is plenty of division on both sides of the political divide to make it strictly a foreign policy strategy issue, not an ideological one. McCain vs Trump is an example. Unlike some of you on this forum, I'm not really into this "us vs them" groundswell that has occurred between left and right in America these days. I am most concerned about America's role in the world and how we manage it. We have not done a good job of it for a long, long time, probably going all the way back to post-WW2 era. Once Korea happened and Truman (most overrated president ever perhaps) didn't listen to MacArthur's counsel, things have spun out of control. But, I digress.

Anyway, to MP....if you don't like talking about Russia (which is a key part of the OP), then don't participate. It's an open forum. Besides, I see the chemtrails thread is active again. Why don't you over there and offer some opinions? (just joshing with you so please don't get all pissed off or anything ).

Edgy, Russia's grievances have been addressed time and again. The Minsk Protocols were supposed to create a framework for peace but they have not been adhered to by either side. The present situation has evolved into the stalemate I previously mentioned was Putin's true goal (outside of annexation of the eastern oblasts). The USA has been derelict in its obligations as well so I am not at all defending our actions (or lack therof). Just stating what has transpired. See the link for details.

https://www.rbth.com/international/...-years-2-deals-but-no-peace-in-ukraine_627177

This quote really says it all regarding the current situation.

Concerning combat activities, in Minchenko's view, Minsk-2 led to a strange situation – "neither peace, nor war" – in which there were no large-scale military operations and when periods of truce alternated with escalations.

As far as the Budapest Memorandum goes, it is not a treaty; it's more like a pact or agreement. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the equation to justify the finger-pointing that has occurred regarding the 20 year-old agreement. Putin has tried to justify Russia's part in breaking the terms of the agreement by saying that the government in Kiev with which the agreement was struck is no longer in existence and therefore the agreement is basically void. I am not sure if that is a legitimate legal argument or not but that's his story and he's sticking to it. He also justified the annexation of Crimea since there was a plebiscite (alledgedly) that took place in which the local population overwhelmingly voted to join the Russian Federation. Much like Hitler (and please, I am not comparing Putin to Hitler so don't eve start with that) felt a need to repatriate Germans in Austria and the Sudentenland, Putin is justifying his actions in Crimea and the eastern oblasts as a patriotic attempt to liberate Russians and pro-Russians in those areas. Again, I don't think he really gives a flying fuck about those Russians. He simply wants to ensure that Ukraine does not join NATO and that he can maintain some sort of buffer zone on his very-vulnerable western frontier.

 

[meesterperfect]

Justa,
If I dont like talking about Putin?
The topic is the United States shooting down a Syrian plane.
An blatant act of war in a country which they have no right being in in the first place.
An act that can lead to war with Russia Iran and even China.
But instead we are talking about Ukraine.
If that isn't total cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance than what is?
Instead of addressing the situation lets talk about Russia Russia Russia in a unrelated topic.
BTW was it Putin who flew all the way to the Ukraine last winter to tell the Keiv GOV to go ahead a attack Donbass,
The US has their back? Mccain and Graham, to clearly mentally unstable old men , US senators traveling acroos the globe to incite civil war
in another country.
Who do they really represent?

Anyway forget what the US is doing in Syria and the consequences that affect us and the entire planet. Fuck it.
Lets talk about Russia Russia Russia just like CNN does.

 

[bodie54]

Putin has tried to justify Russia's part in breaking the terms of the agreement by saying that the government in Kiev with which the agreement was struck is no longer in existence and therefore the agreement is basically void.

Right. What a pile of manure that is.

He also justified the annexation of Crimea since there was a plebiscite (alledgedly) that took place in which the local population overwhelmingly voted to join the Russian Federation.

Right. A plebiscite that was held at the point of a gun by occupying troops he insisted were not present.
Even Putin eventually admitted to that lie, but probably only because it became impossible to sustain it.

Much like Hitler (and please, I am not comparing Putin to Hitler so don't eve start with that) felt a need to repatriate Germans in Austria and the Sudentenland, Putin is justifying his actions in Crimea and the eastern oblasts as a patriotic attempt to liberate Russians and pro-Russians in those areas. Again, I don't think he really gives a flying fuck about those Russians. He simply wants to ensure that Ukraine does not join NATO and that he can maintain some sort of buffer zone on his very-vulnerable western frontier.

Oh the irony: a Russian using Hitler's playbook.
And of course (imo) he doesn't give a flying fuck about those russians. It's all about the territory and it's strategic/economic value that's at issue.

You tell me. You brought up the Budapest Memorandum suggesting that we were obligated to do more than we have.

I didn't suggest any such thing. All I stated is that Russia is in direct, egregious violation of it.

 

[Jack Davenport]

"As far as the Budapest Memorandum goes, it is not a treaty; it's more like a pact or agreement. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides of the equation to justify the finger-pointing that has occurred regarding the 20 year-old agreement. Putin has tried to justify Russia's part in breaking the terms of the agreement by saying that the government in Kiev with which the agreement was struck is no longer in existence and therefore the agreement is basically void

The Paris Climate Accords are not a treaty either. By design, it would have never passed congress

Obama's government is no longer in existence either.

The sanctions are basically void.

 

[Johan]

When the government is secretely designing a bill or a treaty that would impact the lives of their constituents, beware, you're gonna get get fucked. In the Ass. With broken glass
Just like what they're doing with TAFTA, NAFTA and TPP

 

[bodie54]

The Paris Climate Accords are not a treaty either. By design, it would have never passed congress

Obama's government is no longer in existence either.

The sanctions are basically void.

:wtf:
Those sanctions, based on the violation of Ukrainian sovereignty, were approved by Congress, which last I checked still exists, and is populated by a great many members that populated it in 2014.
"The U.S. House and Senate stand together in backing the Ukrainian people during this hour of need," House Speaker John Boehner said immediately after the vote, promising to monitor Obama's actions.

Matter of fact, congress is currently looking to expand on the additional sanctions that were instituted as a result of Russia's election meddling while constricting Trump's ability to alter or interfere with them. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/a..._russia_sanctions_limits_on_trump_134193.html

 

[Jack Davenport]

I am talking about the sanctions( ejection of diplomats) imposed about a month before he left office. Which essentially amounted to rolling someone's yard with toilet paper.

 

[Justaman]

I am talking about the sanctions( ejection of diplomats) imposed about a month before he left office. Which essentially amounted to rolling someone's yard with toilet paper.

So you believe the sanctions should be lifted?

 

[Justaman]

Justa,
If I dont like talking about Putin?
The topic is the United States shooting down a Syrian plane.
An blatant act of war in a country which they have no right being in in the first place.
An act that can lead to war with Russia Iran and even China.
But instead we are talking about Ukraine.
If that isn't total cog·ni·tive dis·so·nance than what is?
Instead of addressing the situation lets talk about Russia Russia Russia in a unrelated topic.
BTW was it Putin who flew all the way to the Ukraine last winter to tell the Keiv GOV to go ahead a attack Donbass,
The US has their back? Mccain and Graham, to clearly mentally unstable old men , US senators traveling acroos the globe to incite civil war
in another country.
Who do they really represent?

Anyway forget what the US is doing in Syria and the consequences that affect us and the entire planet. Fuck it.
Lets talk about Russia Russia Russia just like CNN does.

meester,
You need to take a Xanax.
The reason the thread has evolved into a discussion about Russia is because that's what the people who are actively posting want to talk about.
Sorry but it is a frequent occurrence on web forums.
No, I'm not making it up.
Go see for yourself.
It's not a conspiracy either.
Sometimes random events just take their own course.
Deal with it.
Your mock outrage is a joke.
I would also inform you that it is not unusual for several side discussions to take place within a common thread that are independent of each other.
Happens all the time.
You are perfectly free to make a post about what you believe to be pertinent to the original post.
Go ahead, do it.
You never know, someone may even be interested in replying.
However, please be aware that some of us may continue to choose to discuss the Russian aspect of this topic.
Even you would have to concede that there is a Russian element to this subject, no? :dunno:
If it bothers you that much that we are discussing Russia, simply disregard it instead of going apeshit over it.
That's pretty much all I wanted to say.
Peace.
Out.