Don't support the troops.

[4G63]

Soldiers can criticize the Military, I do constantly. But unless you are or were a soldier you have no right to tell us what we are. To call us out as murderers, and mercenaries, claim we did it for pleasure. I own a 20 inch TV and two cars, I live in a modest 3 bedroom house. The money I earned from my service is in a college fund for my daughter. I live well within my means and take only what I need. Most Americans live well beyond their means and own more than any person could need in ten lifetimes. Those are the people who deserve criticism for waste, not the soldiers who go out and take so that the rich and greedy may use.

 

[Aegis]

I am against the war in Iraq. I am very much against George Bush, and I am sickened by the what has been shown from Iraq about how some American soldiers abused prisoners. I don't think that such people can defend themselves by claiming that they just followed orders.

However, I still think that the soldiers need and deserve support. Despite that the media focus so much on the negative sides of the war, I have no doubt that the soldiers are needed and that the majority of them really want to make things better.

I'm against war. I'm against killing and I'm against violence. But the world isn't a perfect place and sometimes it's needed to use force. I think that Iraq war was a mistake and wrong, but now that we have invaded their country, we sure as hell have to help the iraqis rebuild and stabilize their home.

 

[RogueWolf]

I'm having more and more reservations and questions about the war in Iraq. Specifically in what the plans are to win it...and get out. I have a really bad feeling that in the interest of not wanting to piss off any other mid-east countries...we are fighting a war that our soldiers aren't allowed to win...or do what it TAKES to win. Such as serious and extensive bombing...

While I have questions...I will always support the men and women of the armed forces. I'm sorry...you can say I'm harsh...but to speak out against the soldiers like this is morally reprehensible...and borders on treason.

*Rubs his crystal balls* lol
I sense ... certain members will be in the red.

And I have no shame in admitting that I gave it...

 

[KittyKat]

I think the intial post made my Trigger was an extremely harsh judgement call. NOTHING is ever that black and white.

Have you ever been in combat, Trigger?

Soldiers are human beings just like you or me. And I'm not usually so harsh, but I'm betting if an enemy army/invading force was marching up your street, you'd be damned glad of that soldier with a gun to defend you.

I love the idea of a world wide peace keeping force which would make ordinary military forces obsolete, but I'm afraid that will never happen.

 

[calpoon]

if someone believes in something (in this case not using violent force) then I think it's pretty stupid to suggest that they should go against thier beliefs so that can "know what it's like." If you think that killing people is wrong, join the military before you can form such an oppinion? come on guys. have a little bit of common sense.

what does it mean to support the troops? I've been hearing that for years and I have no idea what it means. I hear often enough that if you don't support the troops then you are a traitor because the troops are fighting for your freedom, yet somehow it makes sense that you can't enact that freedom to disagree with our government or our military.

Do I support the troops? yes, I do. I want to see every single one of them out of harms way and enjoying that freedom that they would give thier lives to uphold. I don't need a stupid sticker on the back of my car to do it, I don't need to blindly follow orders or believe what the president says to do it, all I need is a pretty simple understanding that I have to share a planet with 6 billion other people and every time someone drops a bomb or fires a gun it makes that harder to do.

 

[D-rock]

I would like to say I have never known anybody to go into the military because they thought it was a good way to make money. Yes, I have known some people to go in there because they were desperate, but to say their mercenaries or assassins for hire is laughable. They risk their lives and they get paid peanuts compared to other jobs they could have. I don't think they are rolling in the cash as the bullets are flying.



Now on to this

I believe the only legitimate army would be a U.N. army, deployed for peacekeeping only, and only with the votes of at least 80% of world nations (or thereabouts) and at least 4 of the 5 security council members. The army would be made up of troops from every nation, proportional to the size of their military, and they would work together. Only this army would be legitimate, and any other army going into any other country for any other reason would be in violation of international law and that country would face strict sanctions and ultimately the threat of military action from the globally representative army. This army would not go in with guns blazing, but strictly to remove the leaders who were responsible for the illegal actions against another country, and to allow a democratic vote amongst the people for the replacement government.

I'm not ever sure where to start with this one, but it is so flawed that is worse than anything we have now....unless you want to turn over the world to some tyrant. I'm glad you can feel confident putting your safety in the hands of somebody else. I can't, it seems too foolish. First the U.N. has a hard time deciding on anything now. You think they are just a bunch of caring, compassionate, loving folks that only want to see what’s best for the world?...wrong. They are a bunch of politicians looking out for their best interest. If something came up they are more likely to bitch about it to each other for months while people are dying. As soon as somebody had to end up paying more money or some country’s solders had to risk dying in some dirt poor God forsaken country for no benefit to themselves it would start to fall apart right there. Second the approval percentage and the fact you need people on the security council is just inviting some nefarious behind the scenes dealing to make sure an army never responded if they didn't want it to. All that would have to happen is for one or two people on the security council to secretly build up a private army and then invade whomever they wanted while denying the ability of anybody to do anything. They would probably take over the world considering their is no national armies to fight them anymore and it would be impossible to build them up in time considering anything you do have is probably integrated in a national force in a complex way. Even if they did do something the very fact they went and bent the rules to save themselves would undermine the whole system you set up because it would just give somebody an excuse not to follow the rules in the future.

The fact is that countries do need their solders to protect them, your fairy tale version of reality aside. While there are things solders should never do under any circumstances even if ordered, most of the rest of the time they don't have a choice of whether or not they do some action. I would think that almost everybody that becomes one in this country does so to protect our freedoms. I never heard anybody that wanted to go out and kill a bunch of innocent civilians, or ever the solders on the other side for that matter. It is unfortunate that they have to do things that are probably ill advised because the people at the top are a bunch of idiots, but it is better we have them when are freedom is really at stake than to sacrifice that so we can eliminate them from ever doing something bad. You know what most solders really want, they want the fighting to end so they can go home as quickly as possible while they are still alive.

 

[Baal]

Wow, talk about ignorant. Hmmmmm lets see, im in Bahgdad, im about to go into battle and have a sudden attack of morals and guilt, so i tell my commander i refuse to go into battle. Then im brought up on charges of insubordination and thrown in jail. Yea that makes alot of sense. When you join the military, you are , in a small way, not able to make your own decisions. Everyone who joins the military knows this, and to call them mecernaries?? What the fuck do you call a bunch of towel heads who fly a few jets into a skyscraper and kill thousands of innocent people? Are they patriots? Dont get me wrong im against the war, but for soldiers to question orders and go against them?? Sorry you are extremely narrow minded. We all have the abliity to think for ourselves, but in the military that ability is not an option, to have a bunch of soldiers making decisions on their own? Yea great idea, the military would fall apart, a bunch of free thinkers running around doing whatever they feel is right. I hate that american soldiers are dying for Bush and Cheneys greed, but we dont control their choices, and neither does the military. Maybe if someone you knew died as the result of some ******* blowing himself up youd look at things a bit different. I feel sorry for people like you who have such a narrow minded view of things

you should hook up with paul reikhoff and operation truth...ps: dont call them ragheads..it gives people the impression you enjoy what you are doing!

 

[SeraphiM]

Who decides what is "unjust"?

You?

Did you live in Iraq?

Are living under a tyrant who would soon enough kill you for speaking up against him?

Soldiers are there and see why they are there, while those back at home listen to politicians like spoon fed children. Politicians who by the way have their own agendas.

To blame a soldier is like blaming a rivet for not holding the bridge up over the river when it collapses.

I served 6 years in the Army, before you judge or criticize try walking in their boots first.

IMO an inconsiderate thread/post, no matter how you put it. I don't see it having much of a future.

 

[4G63]

In America, we have the right to say anything we feel about soldiers, war, mercenaries, etc...

Fox

I know, and I'd fight for it again. But as a student who travels the world you wouldn't know shit about me and my men.

You can say whatever you want; we are the reason you can. Our backs are broken and are feet are flat so you can criticize us. I took bullets and lost men so you and trigger can bash us. YOUR WORLD IS BUILT ON WAR. It's an ugly fact but true. American greed drives it's war machine.

I had no money and no prospects in my future, mommy and daddy could not pay my way through life. I did what I had to do to survive.

:thefinger DON'T SUPPORT FOXILIPSUS OR TRIGGER:thefinger

 

[Trigger1286]

if someone believes in something (in this case not using violent force) then I think it's pretty stupid to suggest that they should go against thier beliefs so that can "know what it's like." If you think that killing people is wrong, join the military before you can form such an oppinion? come on guys. have a little bit of common sense.

what does it mean to support the troops? I've been hearing that for years and I have no idea what it means. I hear often enough that if you don't support the troops then you are a traitor because the troops are fighting for your freedom, yet somehow it makes sense that you can't enact that freedom to disagree with our government or our military.

Do I support the troops? yes, I do. I want to see every single one of them out of harms way and enjoying that freedom that they would give thier lives to uphold. I don't need a stupid sticker on the back of my car to do it, I don't need to blindly follow orders or believe what the president says to do it, all I need is a pretty simple understanding that I have to share a planet with 6 billion other people and every time someone drops a bomb or fires a gun it makes that harder to do.

Thank you.

 

[darkhorse30]

i agree u have your veiws trigger but u got to think b4 u type

 

[Trigger1286]

i agree u have your veiws trigger but u got to think b4 u type

I don't understand. I did think before I made the post. Those are my views and that's how I feel. Just because it isn't consistent with your feelings or opinions, doesn't make me an idiot or someone who didn't think before typing.

 

[Trigger1286]

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." -- Albert Einstein

 

[sonny forelli]

Now, even though you might agree that the real evil doers are the leaders who send people into an unjust war. We also can not deny that the ones who actually pull the triggers are the soldies themselves.

Some might excuse them and say that they have no choice but to go, that they might be in a financially tough situation and need the money. Or that they are patriots who mistakenly believe that they are fighting for the good of their country.

But if you enlist in the military for the money, what are you then, other than a mercenary, a hired killer? And isn't it the responisbility of everyone to consider their own actions? No matter if your leaders tell you that going to war is the right thing to do, you still have the ability to think for yourself.

If you go to another country and kill people in an unjust war you are still a murderer, even if you are wearing a uniform.

:ban:total dog shit :thefinger

 

[Mayhem]

"He who joyfully marches to music in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would fully suffice. This disgrace to civilization should be done away with at once. Heroism at command, senseless brutality, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism, how violently I hate all this, how despicable and ignoble war is; I would rather be torn to shreds than be part of so base an action! It is my conviction that killing under the cloak of war is nothing but an act of murder." -- Albert Einstein

So says the guy who helped invent the nuclear bomb.

In my school alone there are countless ROTCs, soldiers, Air Force, Marines, you ask some of them why they did it, they say "to fight for my country", you ask others why they did it, they say "because it was the only way I could pay for school." If that wasn't a reason for doing it, the military wouldn't offer those benefits. Most soldiers I have met did it for some combination of those reasons, and others. To say making money/paying for school is not a factor for young people going into the military is extremely naive.

Would you rather they didn't go to school and spend their lives in dead-end jobs?

what does it mean to support the troops? I've been hearing that for years and I have no idea what it means. I hear often enough that if you don't support the troops then you are a traitor because the troops are fighting for your freedom, yet somehow it makes sense that you can't enact that freedom to disagree with our government or our military.

Excellent post. I thought it was ridiculous when peaceful protesters were called traitors. We have an absolute right to peacefully gather for the purpose of petitioning out government for a redress of grievances. While I support the war in Iraq, I also wholeheartedly support anyone who wishes voice their opposition to the same.

Supporting the troops means exactly that. Many of us join or joined in an effort to support our country. Using the G.I. Bill is not contradictory to that. Going to school and learning a marketable skill is a form of supporting your country. When we hold down a solid career, pay our taxes, raise our kids, and supply ourselves with the necessities and desires of life; we support our economy which is supporting our country.

The rank-&-file of the military is obligated by very strict laws to, quite simply, do as it is told. The "military" does not start wars, politicians do. A member of the military does not have the choice to say no. If you have a problem with what the military does, then your problem is not with the military, it is with the politicians. George Bush won the last election. This time, it was undisputed. If you think we should have peace at any cost, next time do a better job putting someone else in office. But don't take your frustration out on the Privates, Corporals and Sergeants. That is uncalled for.


Lastly, I would like to point out one salient fact which to me, takes precedence over all others. We took Saddam Hussein out of power. The end. Back then, as now, I gave a rats ass about weapons of Mass Destruction. We took that evil prick out of power. (So I'm not misinterpreted, I am no longer in the Army. I served with 1/37 Armor, !st Armored Division in Operation Desert Storm and got out of the Army in 1995) That fact alone justified our going there. As to current events, I don't have a solution, but my conscience is clear about our initial involvement.


Oh, and one more thing about some of the posts I've read. While an allergy to CAPITAL LETTERS is perfectly understandable, the use of some basic punctuation would be nice.

 

[member2686]

We're not going to allow that to happen, if we can prevent it, Fox. That's why we try to address problems/aggressors before they land on our soil, unlike how other countries (in your examples, European countries) have dealt with aggression in the past.

Why wait to clean spilled coffee from the carpet if you can take the cup of coffee from the table and contain it safely? Not the best analogy, but I think you get the picture.

No one with a scintilla of reason ENDORSES or EMBRACES war or killing, and I don't think that that's really at issue here.

We're dealing with common sense issues, just as we each and all do every day. Do you leave your car doors unlocked and the key in the ignition? NO. Why? You don't do that because there ARE some VERY bad people in the world, and you've worked hard to provide for yourself, and your car helps you to provide for yourself because it's needed transportation in the world in which we live. To leave it unlocked with the keys in it would just be foolish and naive, utopian in ideology.

Soldiers and military forces are necessary for the sovereignty of nations, the protection of borders from encroachment, and defense against avaracious, power-hungry madmen like Hitler, Hussein, Stalin, Mussolini, and other notable others throughout history.

American military forces don't kill out of imperialism. I read that word in someone's post above here and about popped a vein in my neck. I think the poster was British. As if ANY British person can even open their mouth about fucking imperialism... Please...

Anyway...

I support the troops of the USA, but I'd not shed a tear if G. Dumbya Bush was found on the White House lawn tomorrow having choked to death on a piece of fried chicken.

:ban:

Besides, everyone knows that "quail hunter" Cheney is really the one running the show anyway...

2008 cannot come quickly enough. I can't wait to get this embarassment out of office.

:2 cents: :hatsoff:

...The military is viewed SO differently here and in Northern Europe. I daresay it would take large-scale wars and invasions ON U.S. SOIL (and I don't mean Pearl Harbour or 911, I mean real, military occupation) to make Americans understand that the MILITARY is a BAD thing, and to have the military of another nation policing or invading your nation is not desirable, for anyone...

 

[Mayhem]

There is never an excuse or a justification for pre-emptive action... NEVER. The country that acts pre-emptively IS the aggressor. The country that acts pre-emptively IS the bad guy. Because you never know if that country you attacked was ever actually going to attack anyone.

That was exactly the sentiment that America held before World War II. Let Hitler create "Fortress Europe" and let Japan overrun most of the Pacific before we get involved. Because of America's inaction before Pearl Harbor, millions more people had to die before the Axis was defeated.

I wouldn't mind following your philosophy, but when someone does become the aggressor, then America gets blamed for not taking action quick enough. Right now, people are pointing to the Sudan and asking why we are standing idly by. Which one is it??

 

[member2686]

Son of A BITCH!!!!!! I just wrote a reply to this for 20 minutes and the motherfucking thing got lost!!!!! Fuck it. I'm not re-writing it.

First of all, 'Fly,...

Fox

 

[qweretyuiopas@]

Son of A BITCH!!!!!! I just wrote a reply to this for 20 minutes and the motherfucking thing got lost!!!!! Fuck it. I'm not re-writing it.

I hate it when that happens, you should do what I do. Anytime u are gonna write a long reply write it in microsoft word then copy/paste it here, that way if it gets lost u still got it on Word.

 

[KungFuDude]

It's SUCH a taboo to criticize the armed forces in America. It's SO beyond acceptable, DESPITE the air of so-called free speech... don't any of you wonder why you're so passionate about this topic?

Think about it: from the moment you were born, you have been exposed to songs and flags and banners and anthems and teachings and phrases and media influence all of which have been telling you that your troops give you your freedom and protect you.
!

There are very few topics on the board that I fail to see the brighter side. This is one of them. "Don't support the troops" is simple trolling. Its aimed directly at one country for the purpose of promoting hate and intolerance. Its also aimed at myself and other members of the board, because we are prior service. As you can see, many of us don't appreciate it.

Your blatant lack of respect on this issue is becoming borderline trolling as well. All you're doing here is finding another avenue to bash America. Thats all you do here I'm starting to realize. I would expect more from someone who is a self proclaimed American.